Wingmen Show
Two Dope Boys in a Navy jet. The Wingmen Show is a weekly podcast about challenges and opportunities in everyday life. Your hosts are two guys born in Harlem, New York previously unknown to each other. Separately, they became Navy pilots flying high performance jet aircraft on and off of aircraft carriers patrolling the world’s oceans. Their paths did not cross formally until they ended up flying for the same airline after their active-duty military service had ended. They have a wide range of experiences spanning the worlds of basketball and boxing. Drew’s father is Drew Bundini Brown, Muhammad Ali’s Wingman and coined the iconic phrase “Float Like A Butterfly Sting, Like A Bee". Martial Arts and Show Business are also areas of mutual interest. Drew has been featured nationally on television programs such as the Donahue Show and the Today Show. He has also appeared in hundreds of newspapers and magazines. Both are published authors as well as former Navy jet pilots and Commercial Airline Pilots; they retired after having flown the Boeing 777 airliner. The cultural mix of religions, immigrant parents and grandparents from Europe and the Caribbean gives them an uncommon perspective on racial matters. Melding the cultures of New York City, Pittsburgh, New Orleans, Memphis, the Caribbean and Atlanta has helped shape their worldview when combined with the life they have seen and experienced having flown extensively to countries throughout the world.They are wingmen to each other, providing advice, guidance and constructive criticism when needed. The goal of the show is to inspire and entertain those unafraid to expand their minds and perhaps learn something new in the hope that the listeners can become wingmen to others. Each one, teach one.
Wingmen Show
Why Watching Sports Makes People Happy
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Why does a championship win feel like you flew the final mission yourself? In Episode 255, Commander Drew and Dr. Paul break down the real psychology behind sports fandom—and why it's anything but "just a game." When your team wins, your brain reacts as if you won: self-esteem climbs, mood lifts, and life feels more meaningful. A major U.K. study of more than 7,000 people found that attending live sports measurably boosts life satisfaction and cuts loneliness—the stadium becomes a temporary squadron ready room, complete with its own colors, chants, and call signs. And the payoff doesn't vanish when your team loses: riding the highs and lows season after season builds real resilience, and the big games become waypoints in the story of your life.
From there, the Wingmen take on hustle culture versus the "soft life." It's not candlelit baths and pretty TikToks—the soft life grew out of Black thought leaders, especially Black women, reclaiming rest, healing, and dignity in a world that demands they push through. Drew and Paul draw the key distinction between reactive escape and proactive slow living, and lay out a practical flight plan: call a factory reset, trade quantity for quality, be where your feet are, and treat real rest as resistance—not weakness.
Welcome to the Wingman Show, where we're floating like butterflies and stinging like bees. Rumble, you two badass jet pilots. Rumble. Welcome to the wingman show. My name is Commander Drew Brown. My wingman, my friend, the guy who always watches my six is my main man, Dr. Paul Thompson. What's up, brother Paul? Hello, Commander Drew.
SPEAKER_02Lord Commander Drew, it should be. How are you doing? I haven't talked to you in a while. I see Virgin Voyages and the uh A6, A7 multidimensional airplanes flying around. I'm guessing you're somewhere away from home.
SPEAKER_03I am actually in Seattle, and we are on an Alaskan cruise. And I just took the first part of it and I'm about to go back for the second part of it. I'm doing the back-to-back here on Virgin Voyages, and it is awesome. Alaska's one of the prettiest places I've ever been. Remember when we used to fly to Anchorage all the time?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I remember it very well.
SPEAKER_03Remember Anchorage area very, very well. I'm here in Seattle, but Alaska is a beautiful place. All right, let's start this puppy off. You know how we started off. We started off with the quote of the day. America's diversity offers so much richness and opportunity. Take a chance, won't you? Knock down the fences that divide, tear apart the walls that imprison. Reach out. Freedom lies just on the other side. And that was by Thurgood Marshall. I believe he's our first black Supreme Court justice, isn't he, Paul?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he was. And uh I don't have much of a connection with him, but I guess a little bit. Uh my cousin was one of his uh law school students at uh Howard University years and years ago.
SPEAKER_03That's awesome. That's a great legacy right there. All right, Dr. Paul. You know, you see both of our hats up here. It's because the Knicks are NBA champions. And, you know, we were just sitting on that couch watching the championship, but it felt like we were flying the final mission with this team. And when the clock hit zero, it was like the whole squadron just nailed a perfect carrier landing, a perfect three-wire, Paul.
SPEAKER_02Yes. You know, and there's a reason it hits us hard. You know, psychologists say that when your team wins, your brain reacts like you just won. Your self-esteem jumps, your mood lifts, and for a moment life feels just a little more meaningful just because you're part of the story, Commander.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but you know, it's not only about the scoreboard, it's about who you're with. Whether you're on a couch or in a stadium, you're in formation with thousands of people all locked on that same target. We were with all those New Yorkers, Dr. P.
SPEAKER_02Very much. The good New Yorkers, not the bad ones. A few bad ones. But uh, and I didn't I didn't see you there. You had a good alibi, you were on a you're on a virgin voyage. But you know, there's a big study out of the UK, and it looked at more than 7,000 people and found that attending live sports boosts life satisfaction and actually cuts down loneliness. So being in that crowd actually made people feel their lives were more worthwhile, stronger than whether they had a job or not, Commander Drew.
SPEAKER_03Well, Dr. Paul, the stadium becomes more than a building, it becomes a temporary squadron ready room. You've got rituals, you got chants, colors, your own version of flight suits and call signs that tell you these are my people and the Knicks are our people, Dr. P.
SPEAKER_02Very much so. So even if you're watching from home, just following the team regularly builds identity and some connection. Research also shows dedicated fans tend to have a higher self-esteem, lower loneliness, and a stronger sense of belonging.
SPEAKER_03Wow, here's the crazy part, Doc. This happiness doesn't disappear when your team loses. You learn to ride the turbulence, you hurt, you regroup, and you come back next season just like a pilot debriefing a tough mission. And that's what we did this year. We came back and we won the championship, Doc.
SPEAKER_02You're very correct, Commander Drew. They were down in the fourth quarter on all the games, as I recall. But those emotional highs and lows are like mental push-ups. They build your resilience. Season after season, the rhythm of the games gives you structure. Holidays, playoffs, championships become waypoints in your life, Commander Drew.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's why when that championship finally lands, when we finally had it, it felt like years of hope, loyalty, and heartbreak all touched down safely at the same time. You know, it's not just happiness, it's relief, connection, and the proof that staying in formation was just worth it. So when somebody says it's just a game, they're missing the mission. Watching sports makes people happy because it gives them a tribe, a story, and a place where they're never, never flying solo. And Dr. Paul, we need to tell our audience that you and I are two of the happiest guys in the world. Because the last time the Knicks were champions, we were teenagers. I haven't been this happy since I've been 18 years old, Dr. P.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, well, that's right. We were teenagers and now we're grandparents, so a lot of time has passed. And I was told by a friend of mine in New Jersey that the whole vibe of the whole tri-state area, New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut, was really totally, totally together. He said he hadn't seen anything like that since the after-effects when people got together after 9-11.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm gonna tell you, it was amazing to watch on television. I'm sorry a couple of idiots had to ruin it by destroying things, which is not our that's not our group of people. But I will tell you this. Mine, no, our New York Knicks are now NBA champions. And like I said, Dr. Paul and Commander Drew are two of the happiest guys in the world. No kidding. All right. Let me ask you this, Doc. Are you really living your life or are you just grinding through it? See, everybody's talking about this new thing called the soft life. But it's not just candlelit baths and getting a massage, or is it there's something deeper we can all learn?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've heard of it. You know, there's like a hashtag that might show ocean views and candles, but the roots of the soft life go way beyond aesthetics. It grew out of black thought leaders, especially black women, carving out spaces of softness, rest, and healing. And the world is constantly tells them to be strong and just push through. It's not about being lazy, it's about reclaiming humanity in a system that treats people like machines, Commander Drew.
SPEAKER_03Well, now contrast that with what we've been fed for years: hustle culture, hustle, hustle, hustle, rise and grind, sleep when you're dead, every minute optimized, every hobby monetized. And if you're not exhausted, you're not doing enough. That's not a life, Dr. Paul. That's a never-ending deployment. No wonder people are burning out.
SPEAKER_02You're right. You know, here's the key distinction that soft life is often reactive. It shows up when you're already exhausted and you retreat into pockets of ease. You know, slow living is proactive, designing a life you don't need to escape from. The soft life might be massage on Saturday. Slow living is changing the week. So you're not crawling to Saturday.
SPEAKER_03So how how do we bring that into our own cockpit? Well, here it is. First, you call a factory reset. Step back on purpose, just do a 20-minute walk with no phone, an afternoon off of social media, a quiet morning with no notifications, you're not quitting life. You're clearing the windshield so you can see what actually, actually matters, Doc.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And the second thing is, you know, you start trading quantity for quality. So instead of calendar packed with obsc obligations, you ask, you know, what brings me joy? What aligns with my values. That's how you shift from doing everything mediocre to doing the right things, you know, really well. And that's where the peace starts to show up, Commander Drew.
SPEAKER_03Very good. And you know what? Thirdly, you practice being where your feet are. Be right where you are. That's mindfulness in plain English. When you're walking, you're walking. Notice the air, the sounds, the light. When you're eating, you're tasting your food instead of just scrolling through everybody else's life. You stop racing from point A to point B and actually live the line in between that, Paul.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, and then there's rest, real rest, not just collapsing at the end of the day. So rest is resistance to a system that says your worth equals your productivity. So it might be a nap, a slow bike ride instead of a drive. Or time your community instead of another online order. So rest really says, my body and spirit belong to me, not to the grind.
SPEAKER_03Well, okay, Wayne, here's the gouge then. A soft life isn't weakness, it's choosing a life built on values, not just velocity. You can still be ambitious, you can still chase big missions, you just stop sacrificing your soul on the altar of more and more and more.
SPEAKER_02Very true. So give yourself some space to heal. Create a pocket of joy. Design a rhythm you don't want to escape from.
SPEAKER_03You know, because at the end of the day, Doc, a life worth flying isn't the loudest or the busiest. It's the one where your heart, your body, and your purpose are all on the same frequency. So here's our wingman definition of a soft life. A soft life is having enough. Enough money, enough peace, enough health, enough love, and having the wisdom to enjoy it instead of constantly chasing more. And we'll be right back. We love good news because there's enough bad news being shown to you every day, but I will tell you, Dr. Paul and I, we're gonna keep bringing you good news. So how about this? Did you know that the Dutch kids, they rank number one in the world for mental health? What makes them so happy? All right, Wayne, here's a question. Why are Dutch kids constantly ranked among the happiest and mentally healthiest kids in the world? Is it the bikes, the phone bands, the schools? Nope, it turns out it's all of those things, but mostly it's something even simpler, Dr. Paul.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, according to a new UNICEF report, Dutch children rank number one in the world for mental well-being. Research has found that what really sets them apart is strong social support. They feel supported by their parents, their friends, their teachers, and classmates. So, in other words, they're not growing up alone, they're growing up connected with others.
SPEAKER_03Well, and here's something else I've found that's very interesting, Doc. Dutch parents work fewer hours than almost anyone else in Europe. So families spend much more time together. But at the same time, Dutch kids are given a lot of independence. It's not unusual for a 12 or 14-year-old to bike miles to school on their own. That's a powerful combination. High support, high responsibility, not helicopter parenting, not neglect, just trust, Paul.
SPEAKER_02And you know, Commander Drew, another factor is that Dutch schools have banned phones from classrooms. What's the result? Less distraction, more attention, more face-to-face interaction. So one student summed it up perfectly. We're more in the moment. So imagine that. Kids actually talking to each other again.
SPEAKER_03Boy, do we want that again? Because all I see kids doing is playing with their phones, and if they're sitting next to a friend, they'll actually text their friend instead of talking to him. So here's today's gouge wingman. Happy kids don't come from perfect parents. Happy kids come from strong relationships, real-world responsibility, and communities that really care. See, the Dutch have figured out something we've known all along. Kids need roots before they need wings. Give them love, give them support, give them responsibility, and then let them go discover who they are, Doc.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because when children feel connected, capable, and trusted, they don't just survive, they thrive, Commander.
SPEAKER_03And see, that's the gouge, wingman. Sometimes the secret to raising happier kids isn't doing more, it's being there more. We'll be right back with our jet jolt. Everybody, jet jolt time. You know we love jet jolt because we are two badass jet pilots. So onening man, quick question. When those oxygen masks drop from the ceiling, how long do you think they give you? Most folks figure an hour or more. Well, they're really well off, aren't they, Doc?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, those masks aren't designed to keep you comfortable for the rest of the flight. They usually give you just a few minutes of oxygen, just enough time for the pilots to get the airplane down to a safe breathing altitude. A short burst, just a critical window. There's a rule that you've got to be able to get from the cruising altitude down to 14,000 feet in four minutes, as I recall.
SPEAKER_03I've been in that cockpit with you, Paul, and when we had to move fast, nobody's thinking about hours of oxygen. We're thinking, can we get this jet down to where everyone can breathe? And like you said, it's 14,000 feet. That's the mission. Get to a safe altitude, isn't it, Doc?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's right. You know, and life works the same way. In a crisis, you don't need infinite strength or infinite money or infinite time. Need a short window of support to stop the free fall. Enough to get your mind and your situation back down into breathable air under control.
SPEAKER_03Well, maybe that oxygen is one honest call to a friend instead of pretending you're fine. Maybe it's a 24-hour pause before you make a big decision. Maybe it's getting on a basic payment plan instead of ignoring the bills. It doesn't fix everything overnight, but it buys you altitude where you can start to think again.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Because we get into trouble when we tell ourselves, you know, if we can't fix the whole problem, well, there's no point in doing anything. You know, but jets don't wait for perfect conditions. They take the window they've got. You stabilize first, and you navigate the rest of the flight commander, Drew.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and Wing Moon loves the gouge again. In an emergency, minutes matter more than miracles. Stop waiting until you have everything to start recovering. Grab that oxygen you have, stabilize, and then fly the rest of the mission for much safer skies. All right, everybody out there, thank you so much for your support. Thank you so much for your letters. Thank you so much for your subscriptions. And if you can tell, we have some badass jets behind us. Well, Paul has an MD11, he that he flew, he was a captain of an MD11, and I have two, I have two Virgin Voyager's jets. One's I believe A6, one's a make believe A7, and they're flying around the brilliant lady that I'm on right now. And I'll tell you something, Dr. Paul. Virgin Voyages treats us great. All right, well, here is our frequent flow letter. And it states, Commander Drew, Dr. Paul, and Ace. I'm 36 and I'm writing to you from a little town in Iowa. I've been a listener for a while, and I guess today I'm finally admitting I need a couple of wingmen myself. You see, I'm a dad to a 15-year-old son, and not that long ago, he used to talk my ear up about everything school, video games, random facts about airplanes, and now it feels like someone flipped a switch. Most days I get a one-word answer, a shrug, or a closed bedroom door. If he says more than fine or whatever at dinner, it actually feels like a miracle.
SPEAKER_02The weird part is he's not quiet with everyone. He talks to his friends nonstop through his phone. I hear him laughing in his room, see him texting or gaming. But the second I try to start a real conversation, it's like he powers down. I end up either nagging, put your phone away, talk to us, or lecturing. You don't know how good you have it. And honestly, I hate hearing myself sound like that.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'll be straight with you. I'm just deep blue about this. I miss my kid. I miss feeling like I know what's going on in his world. I worry. He's slipping away right in front of me, and I'm going to wake up one day and realize we never, ever will get this time back.
SPEAKER_02I don't want to be his buddy, but I do want to be his wingman. That steady voice he knows he can come to, not the background noise he tunes out. I just have no idea how to rebuild that connection without pushing him further away.
SPEAKER_03So here's my question for you, Commander Drew, Dr. Paul, and Ace. How do I get my team to open up again without nagging, lecturing, or trying to compete with his phone for attention? And what does being a good woman to your own kid actually look like in this season of life? Sign just deep blue in Iowa. Well, Ace, what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_01Deep Blue, being a good wing man to your teen is all about showing up consistently without pushing. Skip the lectures or trying to outdo his phone. Instead, be present in the small moments, whether that's listening to his interests or doing something side by side. The key is letting him know you're steady, always ready when he is, no pressure.
SPEAKER_03And Dr. Pearl, we both have sons. Your answer to this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, deep blue, you know, he's he's 15, he's in that mid uh teenage phrase, he's going through different changes, different body changes. He's gonna have phases in and out. Maybe he's quiet now, maybe he's being reflective. As long as he's not depressed and moving forward and doing what he's supposed to do, he's probably okay. Just kind of like push back a little bit, but just uh, you know, just engage him, keep engaging him and uh keep him on a positive path.
SPEAKER_03And as far as I'm concerned, I have a son, a great son, Drew Brown IF, Dr. Drew Brown IV. And I will tell you something. It's not easy having a son, especially one that you raised to try to be better than you, because at one point he always wants to be right and he always wants you to be wrong. But I will tell you this, as an advice for a father, just steady the course. Be who you are, stay who you are, and don't flutter. Always be who you are and always let him know that you're there when he needs you. Being 15, 16, 17, realize you're at the dumbest point in your life only because you think you know everything. The only reason Dr. Paul and I are kind of smart is because we realize we don't know very much. So deep blue, don't worry, your son will come around, and love is the key. All right, Ace. I'm here with Dr. Paul, and I am gonna ask you about the gouge. And you know what the gouge is. The gouge is shit you need to know, but sometimes nobody tells you. And we learned that in the Navy. So, Ace, here's your question. In Navy aviation, you feel fear, but you still have to perform. Break down the difference between being fearless and being trained to act through fear, and show how someone at home can use that idea in everyday life.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I love this one. Being fearless is kind of a myth, even for Navy pilots. Fear's natural. It's your brain saying, hey, this is serious. The real trick is being trained so well that when fear pops up, you got automatic habits, checklists, muscle memory. They keep you acting anyway. At home, it's similar. You don't need to erase fear, just have solid routines in preparation so that when life feels scary, you still know exactly what to do next.
SPEAKER_03That's an excellent answer. Thank you so much, Ace, for that. Dr. Paul, you have anything to say about fear?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, it comes and goes, it's natural. Uh there's something called Nephi. No apparent fear of death. That was always said as a negative. Another way of saying, like, you know, you fear nothing, but that may not be very smart. So sometimes that fear brings out an awareness of your environment. You need to know the environment. It's good to be confident, but being overly cocky, you know, you may uh walk yourself into a trap you didn't see coming without the fear.
SPEAKER_03And as far as I'm concerned, flying night carrier landings, I was scared every single time. From my very first to my 183rd one, I was always scared, but it was a different kind of fear, Paul. It was a fear that made me work harder, realizing that if I didn't do good, I would die. That plane would hit the back of that aircraft carrier. So that fear actually motivated me to fly the best I could, and thank God, obviously, I did.
SPEAKER_02Yes. No magic carpet for you.
SPEAKER_03All right, Wingman, let me take you home to Pittsburgh for a minute. Two kids, Tony and Ray. They grow up on the same block, racing their bikes down to the point where the three rivers meet, swearing they'll always have each other's sicks. Fast forward fifty years, now they're in their late 60s, walking instead of running, still telling the same stories, still side by side.
SPEAKER_02But on one of those walks, something changes. Tony notices Ray holding the rail a little tighter, breathing heavier, telling the same story twice, like it's brand new. At first they both laugh it off. Too many pierogies, getting old. But Tony feels that cold pocket of air in his chest, the one that says, something's not right.
SPEAKER_03So one night, they're in Tony's kitchen, game on the radio, like always, and Brittany finally says, The doc thinks something's going on upstairs, early stuff, memory, coordination. He wants more tests. And in that moment, Tony, the one who feels lost, angry, scared, and completely helpless.
SPEAKER_02And this is where the wingman part kicks in. Tony has a choice. Pull away because it hurts or flying closer. He decides if Ray's going into the clouds, he's not going alone. So instead of calling me if you need anything, he says, I'm picking you up at nine. We're walking to the river. He goes to a doctor's appointment, listens, writes a couple things down, not to take over, but to understand the new checklist.
SPEAKER_03They're just the mission, not the respect. When Ray can't do the steps up to the overlook anymore, Tony doesn't say, I guess that's over. He says, New flight plan. We drive up. Then we do one lap at the top. Same view, different route, but we're still together.
SPEAKER_02Months later, they're back at the point, leaning on the railing where those two kids once threw rocks in the water. Ray's voice shakes when he asks, Tone, what if I forget you? Tony takes a breath and says, Then I'll remember harder. You don't have to carry all of it. That's why I'm here.
SPEAKER_03So Wingman, here's the gouge. Being a real wingman isn't about stopping the storm or fixing the diagnosis. It's about tightening your formation when your friend's engine starts to sputter. Showing up, listening, learning the new checklist, and walking at their speed instead of yours. You may not be able to change what's happening to them, but you can sure make sure that they never, ever have to fly through it alone. Anybody who can hear my voice or see me, I want you to know that anything that you think is important, anything that you think is beautiful, and most importantly, anything that makes you happy, may you have that today and forever. I pray for peace.
SPEAKER_02I pray for peace too, Commander Drew. It's good to see you once again on the high seas or the tundra of Alaska. We appreciate all those who listen, like, and share our message. If you listen to us on Apple Podcast, you'll be able to watch the video too if you'd like. Uh, for all others, we'd appreciate you to uh become a subscriber. Most of you are not subscribers, become a subscriber. That'll help the algorithm tremendously. Talk to you again real soon.
SPEAKER_03Thank you once again, Dr. Paul Thompson, my friend. Thank you for your love, your time. And that's something that we won't ever get back. I want to thank all the listeners too. Thank you so much for doing the show, Dr. Paul with Jairman.
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you, Mr. Drew, for inviting me on. Always good to talk to you. And ladies and gentlemen, please remember to like, share, and subscribe to this podcast or any the podcast. If you're looking at YouTube, uh, they say smash the like button. Don't smash it, just press it gently and refer to use as a link to all your friends. You can also look at us on our website, wingminshow.com, w-i-n-g-m-en show, s-h-o-w.com, all together, wingminshow.com. And we hope to see you in the future. Thanks again, Mr. Drew.
SPEAKER_03Oh, you're welcome. And we're still floating like butterflies and stinging like bees. Rumble, you badass jet pilots, rumble. May there be peace on earth and goodwill towards all men and women.